At 82 years Philip Catherine can boast of having shared stages and recording studios with a simply impressive list of artists, from Chet Baker to Dexter Gordon or Charles Mingus... Passing through Paco de LucíaIt happened long ago, in the 70s, when the genius from Algeciras was exploring the labyrinths of jazz with John McLaughlin and Larry Coryell. The Belgian guitarist recorded a live album with them and played with all three of them on just one occasion, in 79: enough to never forget.
Before meeting Paco de Lucía, did you already have some notion of the flamencoWhat was that music to you?
I had a very general idea. My impression at the time was that it was a very popular kind of music, but at the same time, it was also very serious.
Had you heard of Paco before playing with him? Was he already well-known?
Yes, especially when I played in Barcelona for three months at the Jamboree with Lou Bennet, who played the Hammond organ, and the drummer Edgar Bateman, who replaced Elvin Jones with Coltrane and passed away a while ago. There we heard the first news of Paco de Lucía, about whom everyone raved.
How did you meet Paco? Was it through your close friendship with Larry Coryell?
Well, yes, it was thanks to Larry Coryell. He was the one who arranged the meeting.
What was your first impression of the Algeciras native?
The first thing I thought, and it was a lasting impression, was that I was in the presence of an enormously serious musician, a great musician.
"It is evident that Paco was entering into a field that was not his natural one, flamenco, but his technical limitations weren't so obvious. I get the impression the key lay in his talent for rhythm. He was such a musician that he heard rhythms very well, something some people are weaker at.
And what was the chemistry like between McLaughlin, Coryell and him?
It was a complete harmony, in my opinion based mainly on the good knowledge of the rhythms of all the countries.
It's often said that Paco de Lucía had to overcome numerous obstacles to play with jazz musicians like yourselves, especially his technical limitations. Did you have the impression that he was limited in that sense?
I would say yes and no. It is evident that Paco was entering a field that was not his natural one, flamenco, but his technical limitations weren't so clearly evident. I have the impression that the key lay, as I said before, in his talent for rhythm. He was such a musician that he heard rhythms very well, something some people are weaker at.
On the other hand, there's a certain consensus that Paco was a guitar genius. Could you tell me what made him a genius?
I couldn't choose just one of his qualities. For me, what characterized Paco de Lucía was his profound knowledge of music, in all its breadth. If I had to define him in a few words, even at the risk of sounding simplistic, I would say he was a true musician.
In 1976, you recorded and even released an album of your concert in Le Castellet, France. Do you have any memories of that performance?
It was a huge pleasure to share the stage with such distinguished colleagues. That pleasure grew as the seconds passed, to the point where I didn't want the concert to end.
There's also a well-known video of the Paris concert in January 1979. Do you remember playing together on other occasions after that?
No, there was no more after that, poor me!
Curiously, his participation in that quartet isn't mentioned in his various biographies. Why is that?
Simply because it was the only on-stage encounter between the four of us. It was a French journalist, Antoine de Caunes, on Antenne 2, who arranged for me to play at that 1979 concert as well. He asked me if I'd be willing to join them for the last song, and naturally, I accepted. I think it's important to mention him by name, because without him, they might not have invited me...
Do you have any personal anecdotes or memories of Paco offstage? How did he behave?
More than specific details, I can very clearly remember the energy he conveyed at all times: he was a gentleman, strong and sensitive at the same time.
Larry is said to have left the trio due to his drug problems, but you continued playing with him. What do you think happened?
Well, Larry had a big problem of that nature, but luckily, much later he completely abandoned drugs and alcohol and managed to turn his career around. There we were able to coincide and do things together, while the trio of Paco and John continued on with Al di Meola.
Did you get back in touch with Paco later on? Did you cross paths at festivals or similar events?
Yes, I met him specifically in a music course… More like a course on rhythms flamencoYes, it was very interesting. We shared good times and reminisced about shared experiences. But when I returned home, I realized I'd forgotten almost everything, unfortunately!
"What characterized Paco de Lucía was a profound understanding of music, in all its breadth. If I had to define him in a few words, even at the risk of sounding simplistic, I would say he was a true musician."
Do you remember how you found out about his death?
Of course, a mixture of disbelief, shock, sadness…
Do you think about him from time to time?
Yes, constantly. It's a presence I always remember, both in my personal memory and as an example of a musician.
Throughout his life, he's had the opportunity to meet and play with many geniuses: Chet Baker, Charles Mingus, Dexter Gordon, Stéphane Grappelli, Charlie Mariano, Edgar Bateman... and maybe Paco. Do they have anything in common?
Good question. Let me go back to rhythm, it's almost everything. The overall sense of rhythm is very, very important, in my experience. The swing... The groove... The phrasing... The subtleties. ♦
