We talked with Rafael Chaves Arcos (Madrid, 1966), renowned researcher flamenco, author of important historical and biographical works, including one of the reference works dedicated to Juan Breva and an impressive study on the canteminers. Their work stands out for its careful handling of historical sources, critical analysis of documentation, and a constant willingness to get closer to the flamenco with rigor and intellectual honesty. With him we talked not only about research, but also about the current state of flamenco, of the great flamenco singers and the challenges this art faces in the 21st century.
– Rafael, how did your passion for flamenco And at what point did he decide to dedicate a significant part of his life to studying it?
– My first contact with the flamenco It came about unconsciously. My father, from Cádiz, wasn't exactly a big fan or anything, but I remember him listening to the flamenco He loved Manolo Caracol with delight. He had a series of his recordings that he played constantly. And as a child, I listened to Caracol a lot without even knowing any of this. My father's passion began and ended with Caracol. Then, as a teenager, I became very fond of the guitar, listening first to Paco de Lucía. I wanted to explore everything Paco had recorded. And Paco, naturally, led me to Camarón, to Lebrijano and Fosforito. And that's where it all began.
Regarding my dedication to the study of flamencoIt wasn't a premeditated decision, but rather one that developed gradually. During my university years in Madrid, I was immersed in the music-loving atmosphere at the San Juan Evangelista residence hall. I attended many of the recitals that the hall organized. Around that time, I also frequented many peñaYes, I met many good enthusiasts, as well as knowledgeable people and writers on the subject such as José Blas Vega, Luis Maravilla, Félix Grande or Ángel Álvarez Caballero, among many others, and I went from here to there learning and incorporating into my readings everything I could. flamenco It fell into my hands. All this was happening at the same time that I was naturally expanding my listening to flamenco singers of my time and recordings of the older ones. Each new voice I heard opened up a treasure chest of new sounds for me. It was a very interesting time in which my eagerness to learn about this was somewhat disjointed, while at the same time I was discovering new accents and the diversity in terms of concepts of the canteWith some preparation, I even managed to participate in some radio stations run by friends and wrote with more enthusiasm than knowledge in one or two modest publications at the fan club level.
– Your name is especially linked to historical research. What must Flemish research have to be considered rigorous?
– It depends on the field from which the research is being conducted, as the method differs depending on whether it is approached from a musicological, sociological, anthropological, or traditional lyric perspective. The approach of flamenco From a historical perspective, it's necessary to consider all these aspects to avoid getting lost and to better locate what you're looking for. Unfortunately, the flamenco Throughout history, flamenco has been a largely neglected art form, if not outright denigrated, by most intellectuals who could have written about it in its various eras but failed to do so, due to a preconceived notion that broadly labeled it as "music of gypsies and disreputable people." This idea, undoubtedly inherited from Enlightenment thought, still persists. Therefore, even from an openly anti-flamenco text, conclusions can and should be drawn. If this same cultural current also denigrated bullfighting, we find the paradox that, comparatively, historical texts describing bullfighting outnumber those addressing flamenco by a thousand to one. flamencoHence, the history of bullfighting is much more clearly and effectively documented in almost all periods, which has resulted in a treatise such as The Cossío, published in 1943, was unthinkable in the field of flamencoThe history of flamenco, compared to that of bullfighting, could be said to still be being written with great difficulty, and compared to the latter, although one might think otherwise, it covers few, very few chapters.
To draw an analogy, from the history of flamenco We need to identify as many pieces as possible to begin to understand the puzzle, even though it may still appear incomplete. This is further complicated by the fact that many of these pieces have been lost, and others must be verified as authentic and correctly placed, since puzzles vary from era to era. Naturally, the older the puzzle, the harder it is to find pieces and the more blurred the overall picture becomes.
These pieces are merely sufficiently relevant elements with which we can make a well-argued judgment on the development of a cante or the trajectory of an artist. The greater the lack of data, the worse the situation, the more clear the elements must be to propose a reasoned hypothesis about the subject being addressed. In most cases, one cannot aim to close off lines of inquiry, but rather to lay out a sufficiently clear path to continue refining the research, since certainties are very few and uncertainties many. That is why, in the flamenco One must always avoid categorical statements or denials about something specific and be wary of those who make them, because such statements are more indicative of ignorance than of thoughtful study.
Especially for the flamencoGiven that it is an art form deeply rooted in tradition, one must avoid historical presentism and discard any prejudice about the subject matter to ensure objectivity. It is equally essential to have listened extensively. cante And, without a doubt, having a good musical memory helps a lot in comparison and when correlating styles of cantethat have occurred throughout time.
"Throughout history, the flamenco It has been a largely neglected, if not denigrated, art form by most intellectuals who could have written about it throughout its various eras but failed to do so, due to a preconceived notion that broadly labeled it as "music of gypsies and people of ill repute." This idea, undoubtedly inherited from Enlightenment thought, still persists.
– Throughout your career you have worked with numerous documentary sources. What findings have surprised or excited you the most?
– Every discovery has always brought its share of joy. If we talk about important figures in this art, I could point to what it meant to find Villegas from Malaga – Francisco Paredes Villegas – a flamenco singer from the Perchel district, a year older than Silverio, the first to whom a style of soleá is attributed; the true identity of the flamenco singer Teresita Mazzantini – Teresa Loreto Seda –, from Jerez, born in 1873 and first cousin of Manuel Torre (revealed in the chapter dedicated to Currito de La Geroma); the real name of Macaca – Miguel Cruz Rodríguez –, a flamenco singer from Carmona born in January 1854, and his wife, almost eleven years younger than him, Enriqueta Jiménez Mateos from Seville, known as Enriqueta La Macaca.
Speaking of relevant facts, I must mention the record that as early as 1857, the soleá was already being sung, danced, and played by Gypsies in the Jaén region, associated with a funeral ritual (in the first entry dedicated to José Yllanda). Also, the fact that we revealed (in the third installment dedicated to rondeñas) that the melody of a well-known fandango attributed to Paco Isidro –Even though I'm leaving, I'm not really leaving…– it was found in one of the popular melodies collected by Julián Arcas and included in his Great rondeña for guitar around the year 1860.
– Your book about Juan Breva has been highly praised by specialists and enthusiasts. What did you discover about the character that most caught your attention during your research?
– I undoubtedly discovered his great human qualities. On an artistic level, in my opinion, Juan Breva is the link in the chain of cante which introduced in its time the flamenco to an audience far removed from this musical expression. That is why Juan Breva's art transcended the flamencoI sincerely believe that Antonio Ortega Escalona had that merit firsthand, because his era followed a much more complicated path than that later experienced by Chacón or Niño de Marchena, of whom it is said, and it is not false, that they helped to dignify the canteBut long before that, Juan Breva had paved the way for that to be recognized, even more so in that era and without prejudice to the fact that his art was also praised and acclaimed by the most demanding fans of the time.
– What is the current state of Flemish research? Are we experiencing a particularly fruitful period?
– There's no doubt that access to new technologies has helped a lot, and today there are many people who, with varying degrees of success, dedicate themselves to research. However, among those who write about this topic, it's noticeable who has listened to and internalized the flamenco Those who possess a greater range of knowledge and experiences related to this art form possess a broader understanding than those who do not. This is particularly noticeable in the different approaches that can be taken to the same news item. Disagreements about the same fact are logical and beneficial, but they should always be grounded in knowledge. Naturally, it is impossible to encompass all the data, disciplines, and knowledge that this art form presents from its various fields of study. Therefore, one must be humble enough to ask for help with aspects one is less familiar with. We must recognize the importance of interactive collaboration among researchers to advance further and more effectively in the studies each of us undertakes.
– Why do you think you are not receiving the necessary support from the authorities?
– It is clear that since the Flamenco It was declared an Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, but in one way or another, politics has intervened, and not for the better. It's obvious that many people who are resuming the organization of regular festivals or preparing series of events... flamenco They know absolutely nothing about this art form and are usually very poorly advised. Hardly any of the money allocated to these activities goes to research. I think most of us who do research do it out of genuine love for the art and a desire to learn, and we are self-funded.
"You can be very media-savvy without being a good artist, but the problem is that there are many who with the cante They simply can't stay in the spotlight and constantly reinvent themselves. There are others who are in a hurry to finish their degree without having even started it. Since they don't master the canteThey say they are “transgressing” it and that by doing so they claim to be revolutionizing something for which God has not called them.”
– Your blog Adventurers of the Flamenco has become a true benchmark of flamencoCurrent work. How much time has been behind this project and what has it personally brought you over these years?
– As a free portal for historical research flamenco It simply aims to contribute to the knowledge of this art, as do or have done with the magnificent blogs of Faustino Núñez, Manuel Bohórquez, José Luis Tirado Fernández, Antonio Barberán, Javier Osuna, and Alberto Rodríguez. PeñaI would like to mention Ángeles Cruzado, Antonio Conde González-Carrascosa, Kiko Mora, Miguel Ángel Fernández Borrero, Antonio Cristo, Rafael Steve, and Andrés Raya, who also freely share news and contribute to the study. Some of them share a similar perspective to mine, most of them having emerged before... adventurers And I must admit that I have learned from reading them, so I must thank their authors for their great work.
The blog offers immediacy in dissemination and aims to solidify, as much as possible, that history of flamencoThe blog is unfinished in most of its chapters. It's true that a lot of work goes into it, exacerbated by my own obsession with trying to close or conclude topics within the limitations of each chapter, which explains the long gaps between posts. However, the usual revisions are inevitable, thanks to information that comes to light later, both from colleagues and myself.
The blog has given me the freedom to write about what I like, independence in the topics I want to explore and share with the community, and above all, it has been a vehicle for exchange with other colleagues with whom I continue to learn.
– If I had to name three essential figures for understanding the history of cante flamencoWhich ones would you choose and why?
– Choosing just three figures is very difficult. Even so, I would cite Silverio first, as he was the first great popularizer of flamenco and to elevate it to heights of greatness perhaps unknown before him. For being a discoverer and patron of artists, a businessman and flamenco singer for and by art, and the true driving force behind professionalism. flamencoAlso, to Chacón, for being excellence in the canteAn explorer of his artistic capabilities and a melodic architect of everything he sang. With him, the flamenco She was dignified. And La Niña de los Peines, for dedicating her unique abilities to her art without holding anything back. She left greatness in everything she sang, took genius to its highest expression, and was undoubtedly the most complete flamenco singer of all time.
– What themes or figures from flamenco Do you believe they still need in-depth and rigorous research?
– Important musicological contributions are being made by authors such as Faustino Núñez, Guillermo Castro Buendía, Gregorio Valderrama, Pepa Sánchez Garrido, José Miguel Hernández Jaramillo, José Francisco Ortega Castejón, and Fernando Sanjuán on the canteAnd flamenco music must continue. I believe it is necessary to complete, as far as possible, the history of flamenco in those places outside the traditional core of Cádiz, El Puerto de Santa María, and Seville. Significant progress has been made in the provinces of Málaga, Almería, Murcia, Córdoba, Extremadura, Madrid, and Barcelona, but many other places remain to be explored, which will undoubtedly contribute to completing the history of this art.
Any research conducted on lesser-known Flemish figures, always carried out rigorously, will have its share of importance, as it helps to connect the thousands of pieces that still need to be discovered and fitted together to better define the history of Flemish art. flamencoThey should generate the same interest both those who, due to their abilities, were outstanding amateurs and those less well-known who joined the ranks of professionals.
– How do you see the current state of cante flamencoAre we living in a great artistic moment?
– I'm somewhat pessimistic about this era. I see a decline in the quality of flamenco singing. Unfortunately, these days most true flamenco singers aren't very well-known or media-savvy. There are some very good singers who know their craft and have mastered it, but there aren't any real stars. cante They don't even create a trend, much less a school. In my day—and I can say that because I just turned sixty—you'd listen to a flamenco singer, you might like him more or less, but he had his own "signature." Not anymore. I also see a general lack of appreciation; without appreciation, it's impossible to "distinguish."
The issue of artistic timing needs clarification. One can be very media-savvy without being a good artist, but the problem is that many people, with the cante They simply can't stay in the spotlight and constantly reinvent themselves. There are others who are in a hurry to finish their degree without having even started it. Since they don't master the canteThey say that they "transgress" it and that by doing so they claim to be revolutionizing something for which God has not called them.
"I was incredibly lucky to meet Fosforito and speak with him on several occasions. It was a delight to learn from this master. As a figure, he had what all the greats have: voice, talent, heart, intelligence, a distinctive style, and creativity. He rescued some canteHe was free from oblivion and in everything he sang he put his very personal stamp, in addition to being the author of most of his lyrics."
– It has recently come to light Fosforito. Since the beginning of timeAn ambitious work coordinated by the late Luis Soler. What is your assessment of this work, and what place does Fosforito occupy in the history of... cante flamenco?
– First and foremost, I would like to highlight the figure of the great Luis Soler Guevara. After my time in Madrid, I recognize in Luis an excellent teacher and a great friend. With him, my knowledge of flamenco His influence grew exponentially. His commitment to this art and his generosity have been important to a generation of enthusiasts and scholars. Anyone in our time who has explored or practiced this art, whether professional or amateur, has encountered Luis Soler.
Regarding the work itself, I can attest that it is an extremely rigorous and exceptionally high-quality piece of work. The other co-authors—Francisco Cabrera, Paco Roji, the aforementioned Fernando Sanjuán, and Ramón Soler—are a clear example of the collaboration I mentioned earlier in achieving shared objectives. It is through works of this magnitude that the recent history of [the field] is also being consolidated. canteIt is a shame that neither Luis nor Fosforito himself were able to enjoy this work, whose publication has been very important.
I'll refrain from using the superlatives that have been said about Antonio Fernández Díaz, all of them positive, and with which I wholeheartedly agree. I was incredibly fortunate to meet him and speak with him on several occasions, and it was a delight to learn from this master. As a figure, he possessed what all the greats have: voice, talent, heart, intelligence, a distinctive style, and creativity. He rescued some canteHe was a figure who escaped oblivion, and in everything he sang, he left his very personal mark, in addition to being the author of most of his lyrics. This is what the book is about, and I wholeheartedly recommend reading it because such a great figure deserves to be studied with a work of this nature.
– Sometimes you hear that the flamenco He goes through periods of creative crisis and at other times experiences a period of immense richness. What is his vision?
– The premise itself presents a very disparate duality. I'll go back to what I said before. I think we suffer from a genuine lack of passion, which even extends to professionals. How can one create with a poor background in the art form one dedicates oneself to? Sometimes just enough to get by, compared to what the art encompasses. cantePassion must come before personal taste. And it is precisely now, when we have all the information at our fingertips, that we are least informed, or least want to be. And if you don't know a good portion of soleares, malagueñas, cantiñas, tientos, or tarantas, how on earth are you going to put personality into something you don't sing? This proves the first point: that we are going through a crisis of creativity. And regarding that enormous richness, I don't see it anywhere.
– In your opinion, what constitutes good singing, beyond individual likes and dislikes? It's surprising how many enthusiasts, with considerable experience and knowledge, can't agree on this…
– I believe that singing well, in terms flamencoYes, it's about knowing how to communicate. If you don't communicate, the cante It may be formally perfect, but it won't communicate anything and therefore won't evoke any emotion. Because the flamenco Beyond what is sung, it's how it's sung. The disparity of criteria may stem from the concept of cante that one possesses: good vocalization, good breathing, natural talent… But that's not very different from the qualities required in other singing disciplines. The good cante flamenco It is distinguished by its ability to transmit and even to hurt.
– What is your opinion on the role of flamenco outreach today? Are we succeeding in making it more accessible? flamenco to the new generations?
– The disclosure of flamenco It is necessary and very important. Each of us, at our own level and to the best of our abilities, must do this work. Bringing knowledge from flamenco Instilling values in new generations is a double-edged sword. While it's true that we have more resources, we must also fight against the empty distractions available to young people, making it a difficult task. Álvaro, you know far more about this than I do, given your achievements and progress in instilling values in children from a young age. flamencoTherefore, I take this opportunity to congratulate you on your work.
"I believe that singing well, in terms of flamencoYes, it's about knowing how to communicate. If you don't communicate, the cante It may be formally perfect, but it won't communicate anything and therefore won't evoke any emotion. Because the flamenco Beyond what is sung, it's how it's sung. The disparity of criteria may stem from the concept of cante that one possesses: good vocalization, good breathing, natural talent… But that's not very different from the qualities required in other singing disciplines. The good cante flamenco It is distinguished by its ability to transmit and even to cause pain."
– Social media has profoundly changed the way we talk about and spread information flamencoDo you think we are making good use of them? What have they contributed and what risks do you see?
– Every tool depends on how it is used. It can be a great way to introduce to flamenco Little by little. There are many websites that talk about flamencoAlthough, unfortunately, not all of them present the required rigor. The fact that everyone expresses their opinion means that each reflection will be better or worse grounded. Opinions are free even without supporting data, and if given credence, they can end up questioning, without any basis, what has been so painstakingly investigated with data. To give an example, a current of thought has become fashionable, reinforced by the publication of a few books, which revives the old idea of Blas Infante and insists on the direct influence of Arab culture on the flamencoThis doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny. Their argument rests solely on a forced etymology of certain Arabic words with other common words from flamenco And these kinds of dead-end hypotheses have managed to secure funding through television programs that contribute nothing new and only create confusion.
– Define these artists in one sentence:
- Juan Breva: the quintessence of cante from Malaga.
- Don Antonio Chacón: the most serious candidate towards perfection of cante In uppercase.
- Manuel Torre: the absolute master of the duende in everything he sang.
- La Niña de los Peines: as I said, the best and most complete flamenco singer in history.
- Tomás Pavón: Gypsy perfection in the cante.
- Cojo de Málaga: quality and personality of the singers and the sublimation of the taranta.
- Cayetano Muriel: the best flamenco singer from Cordoba that history has ever heard.
- Ramón Montoya: the revolutionary of the antique guitar and the exquisiteness of the touch.
- Pepe Marchena: the creativity of cante taken to its maximum expression.
- Caracol: the cante that either pinches or hurts.
- Juanito Valderrama: mastery and knowledge at the service of creation.
- Fernanda de Utrera: the last great soleá singer in history.
- Juan Talega: the essence of cante old that never goes out of style.
- Antonio Mairena: the flamenco singer you should always listen to; the collector, the disseminator, the recreator, the master.
- Fosforito: the example to follow, the personality, the honesty and the dedication of a whole life to the service of cante.
- Paco de Lucía: perfection and the best guitar skills ever known and unsurpassed.
- Camarón de la Isla: the genius of a gifted individual cante too imitated in its form, but not in its substance.
- Enrique Morente: knowledge mixed with ingenuity at the service of evolution cante from the base.
- Rosalía: a clear example to keep in mind to know that what seems to be is not always what it seems.
– To conclude, after a lifetime of studying and listening flamencoWhat does Rafael Chaves keep looking for when he hears a cante?
– That it surprises me. Because the same canteEven if you've heard it many times, depending on your mood, it can surprise you as if you were hearing it for the first time. A recital of cante You have to go with a very open mind to be receptive to what you hear. flamenco It truly always surprises. ♦
